An MMORPG feature I dream about..

[Aermord]

WARNING: THIS IS A VERY LONG POST..

Nearly every MMORPG being made is being compared to World of Warcraft - and there is a good reason for that, because WoW stands out as being the most successful MMORPG ever, and a successful MMORPG means lots of money for the developers. Hence what we've seen so far on the MMORPG front are clones of WoW, more or less. The formula seems to be more or less the same, players grind, harvest, craft and advance their characters in power, based on XP or skill based systems. WoW use an XP based system, of course, but in my oppinion, the use of skill based systems has been a step forward in MMORPG development for various reasons.

In my oppinion the biggest step forward in MMORPG developments has been the sandbox model (compared to earlier quest based models) in newer MMORPGs, a path of which it seems Drackarre is following. The reason for this is that for the first time players got a chance to have some sort of actual impact on the world. In the quest based systems the only way you can stand out from the crowd is to continue grinding, getting the best gear and completing the most prestigious quests - and then - even at that point, there are always others who've done exactly the same. A sandbox system offers something more, you can build a house somewhere, players could build an entire village, or maybe a castle with defences and everything. If the world is truly sandbox, then you would not have quests pointing you to certain bosses to kill, no you would have to explore the world yourself and discover what animals and creatures live within it. If you slay some ancient beast, which after being slain doesnt respawn again at the same spot and/or maybe only appears again months later, then your character have done something that has impact on the world and others might consider him a hero for it. Some MMORPGs already offer extensive guild wars over territories, where territories change hands from day to day, or in some situations from hour to hour - That might give the player an impression of having an impact on the world, yet in reality he really doesnt, because an hour later his accomplishments might have been erased.

And now we are closing in on what my suggestion would be - and trust me, it is a dangerous one. Dangerous because implementing it would include a risk, a risk that all those players who wants endless of grinding and leveling without consequences might find somewhere else to play. And if they find somewhere else to play, then the development team might not earn as much money and that could in the worst case cause an end to the MMORPG. The only MMORPG I've heard of that have created a server that embraces what I'm going to suggest is Dofus, and that game is of a type that in so many ways doesnt appeal to me. Lets get to it, my suggestion is:

>> Include Permadeath

Permadeath, as in "Permanent character death", as in you-do-not-respawn-when-you-die. For the permadeath system to truly work, it is also vital that the world is full PVP and where full character looting is enabled. The disadvantage to a permadeath system is of course, if you consider it a disadvantage at all, that you can loose the character you've spend oh so much time to build. To me, that isn't a bad thing, consider the following advantages (in my book at least):

1) Permadeath adds realistic consequence. Imagine you wandered recklessly into the lions cage in a zoo in real life and started lashing at the lions with a knife. There is a very high chance that you would end up being dead - permanently of course. Hence, this would be a stupid thing to do. - Now take a look at most MMORPGs out there, people approach creatures or other players with the knowledge that their attack will not have much consequence. The worst thing that can happen is that the char "dies" and respawns and depending on the system, is able to retrieve his loot or not. In a full loot world, you will of course store some spare equipment in the storage to ensure that you can go on even if your corpse is looted. If you got the knowledge that being reckless would increase the risk of loosing your char, permanently, then you would think twice about how to approach an enemy.

2) Permadeath adds fear. Trust me, in an MMORPG fear is a good thing. Read the following to get an impression of how fear will affect players decisions in a permadeath world.

3) Permadeath adds interaction. In a world with full PVP and full looting, anyone travelling alone would be at risk. Far less people would explore the world on their own, because you might fear loosing your character in an encounter. Hence, people will begin to interact, form groups, form guilds, form in game friendships, not only because it allows you all the guild specific stuff you find on the majority of MMORPGs, but because it is vital for your characters survival and progress in the game world.

4) Permadeath makes it matter. Back when Neverwinter Nights set new standards for online roleplay possibilities I was playing in a user generated persistent world with permadeath. I had some of my most memorable multiplayer events there, it was simply amazing. Let me describe one of these: All the characters in the world had lost their old town to a mad wizard, hence they lived in shacks and tents near a beach. Over time this group of characters became more and more organized, my character, a paladin, was at the heart of it. Not because of his level, but because of his personality and ability to lead (the way I roleplayed him), the characters rallied around him and other characters that had risen to be leaders of the settlement. The leaders had become leaders not by grinding through hordes of monsters, but by organizing the defence and making the place reasonably safe. It was decided that an attack should be made on the characters old town to win it back from the wizard. After having battled his minions, thanks to an organized way of doing this, no chars were lost. Then finally we were in the castle, standing before the wizard. Then diplomacy started, each part tried to convince the other to surrender, well knowing that if it came to battle, characters would be lost. The wizard warned us that if any of us moved closer, he would kill us all. Hence people were ordered to stand their ground and wait. One fellow, a rogue, however tried to sneak closer to the wizard and then all hell broke loose. Engulfed in fireballs the characters rushed forward to slay the wizard. My paladin was in the first line and was hit by a fireball and died. More than one third of all characters in that game was killed in that final battle. And it stands out as the most memorable event I've ever had in an online RPG, it was absolutely great! A result of the battle was that all those characters that died were given funerals and was considered heroes by the rest of the characters in the community. In other words, the actions of the characters mattered, their deaths mattered, and that created the kind of "epic" feel that you cannot find alike in todays MMORPGs.

5) Permadeath fosters roleplay. In addition to interaction, roleplay does also thrive in a permadeath environment. Very often different roles develop, some characters become guards of others, characters who become trusted by a group of other chars can rise to positions as "kings" and "queens" and politics between player made factions will thrive. All of this will happen because the life of the characters suddently matters. The game becomes more than just another grinding platform. Each character got the chance of leaving a mark on the world, a mark that other characters will remember and cherish. Its not only about being the highest level or most skilled anymore, its also about being "someone". It wouldnt hurt to bring "roleplay" back into "Massive Multiplayer -ROLEPLAYING- games".


>> There are different ways to implement permadeath, it doesn't have to be a system where a final blow will kill you. I've experienced a system that worked very well, where characters became unconcious when their health ran out. Then a series of rolls were made over time, rolls that would determine if the char would move closer to death or to regaining consciousness. This system allowed others who travelled with the char falling close to dying to aid him by bandages or healing. Permanent death doesn't have to be something that comes easily.

>> Some might say that the problem about a permadeath MMORPG would be that someone could just create a char and run around killing others and get easy loot and that if they die, they can just create a new char and continue with this behaviour. A solution to this could be that you would not be allowed to create a new char right away. Though I do not think anything like that would be needed, because players would organize in game and being a lone assassin would get you killed pretty fast.

>> Permadeath does not have to mean that your next char have to start as weak as your first char did. Players could be rewarded based on how long their chars have survived in the game and be allowed to make a new char that is more skilled than a basic starting char.


-- Aermord

[Odal havamal]

Permana death could be very very good for a sandbox.

But you need to "respawn" as your child after the death, meaning your descent, with LIMITED skills/stats penality (based on the time you need to get back as an adult?) and no items/house lost (excepted all items on your corpse )

Aslo you need to have VERY hard penality for player-killing, based on the allignement, and the possibility to fight, defeat and loot a player without killing him.
That mean player will not kill each others excepted for a solid reason. Having the freedome to do it should be awesome!

Having Permana-death without "descent system" and losed everything at each die and aslo hav'nt penality for killing, i dont call that a MMORPG but a medieval counter-strike... MMORPG are about avatar rôle aka progression, not restart your caractere every fight you do.

In this kind of sandbox, of course, you start the game as a kids.

[Avneet]

A very nice read and thanks for the suggestions. We just don't envision Drackarre being a perma death game. Many of the devs and I have had our past through mmo games and found our love is progressing over time together. The idea that if one of us died and had to start at a lower level or all over just doesn't seem like what we envision. I know if I died after leveling so far and being equal with my friends, I'd probably quit rather than spend all that time to catch up again by completely restarting.

Don't get me wrong I think it's a great idea. It's just not the type of game we want to create. We have to develop what we love and have a passion for. If we try to develop something we aren't passionate about it would never reach full potential

[Cradlejoe]

Another game (Hearth and Haven) handles death in an interesting way.
It's sort of semi-perma-death.
You characters have beliefes (Which you can change) and one fo these beliefs is to do with your death. If you believe in tradition when you die you can reincarnate with near 100% of your previous skills. If you believe in change then you reincarnate with very little of your old skills but you have a significant boost to your XP-gain (Also you get a significant debuff to your XP-gain if you choose to believe in tradition).
I like this idea (I do think it needs a little more refining) and it's uniquness, but I doubt that it's really for any other game but Hearth and Haven.

What I'm saying is that the whole death idea for characters is very good to experiment with.

[Avneet]

Death in it's whole will be tested. We don't want it the normal way with no risks when you die. That's for casual gamers and we aren't aiming at them

[Aermord]

@Avneet

All respect to you and your team for creating an MMORPG based on the things you like. I never expected that you would embrace the idea of permadeath, no MMORPG has so far really had the guts/desire to take the step.

I would like to adress one thing you said, however. You say that what makes a good MMORPG experience for you is relationships that grow over time, that you can follow your friends level and skill wise throughout the game. That means being able to battle the same monsters and enter quests together, etc. This point I understand, I've experienced it myself in the MMORPGs I've played. And yet at some point, levels doesnt matter to me anymore, what matters is to "become someone" in the game world, someone people will recognize, someone who stand out from the crowd. And in MMORPGs the crowd are exactly those who believe they will stand out and be unique by gaining a high level (in skills or XP, whatever), but in the end the chars turn out the same, they do the same quests, they get the same equipment, its just a matter of playing the game long enough.

I had a char in the early days of World of Warcraft that became quite famous on his server. I started a guild, a religious order, that created its own events in the game. We had large scale ceremonies and expeditions, where the aim wasn't leveling, but storytelling. The guild became famous on the server because we did something else than the game intented, we tried to add consequences to a game that in reality had none. My character became one of the most powerful on the server - not because he was high level, actually his level was only mid range, but because he had people who supported his actions, and did his bidding. In the end I grew tired of it. Tired of the morons who would jump in during events and spoil everything and where we could not make them suffer the consequence. In WoW, chars just run through each other, as you know, you cant push anyone away.

MMORPGs have become a disgrace to their names, because they are not games of "roleplay" they are games of "character building", arcade games where you grind, grind, and grind, whether it be crafting or monsters. They may try to create a story that you can discover while you play, but they are never succesful, because "grinding" is the word of the game. They should change the name to MMOCBGs instead.

I have tried a persistant world with permadeath, and I have seen that it actually worked, that it made the life of every char "important". And because every life was important, leveling and grinding became less important, it was replaced by storytelling and roleplay.

The funny part is that there might actually be a larger request for MMORPGs to live up to their name than most developers really think. Take a look at very succesful RPGs like Morrowind, Oblivion and the newest: Dragon Age Origins. In those games you are a part of a story. And when I read the bioware forums these days, I see people asking if Dragon Age could be developed into a MMORPG. The gameplay of Dragon Age Origins is nothing special, then why would people hunger for a Dragon Age MMORPG. Because of the story, because of the roleplay experience they get in the singleplayer game. If it at some point were made into an MMORPG, then it would probably not stand out from any MMORPGs, because the developers would take the known formula for an MMORPG, grinding without real consequence, and then the game woud have lost its appeal.

I'll try out your game when you release it, the sandbox style could interest me a bit. But beside that, I really dont see anything in what I've read about your game on your website or in the forums that would make it remarkably different than any other MMORPG on the market. Basically its the same concept.

[Avneet]

I'm sorry I didn't mean what I said in a way of charaacter building together. I meant that we go through everything from beginning to end together so we stay equal. That's not to say we didn't make our selves stand out. We were known for our own special ways of playing and what we did in the game. Believe me we are against the type of game that has disgraced the name of MMORPGs. Grinding until you have a strong leveled character is exactly what we don't want. I never enjoyed that in most MMORPGS.

[Cradlejoe]

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